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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Building an Alekhine Repertoire.... (Read 60989 times)
Markovich
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #25 - 02/12/10 at 16:04:16
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Bresando wrote on 02/12/10 at 10:09:39:
Hi everyone! Smiley
my Alekhine repertoire is entirely based on Cox book and i am trying to update it so i have some questions:

-In the 4PA i used to play the 5...dxe5 6...c5 line with e6
but i heard that a refutation has been discovered; i guess it involves the sharp 10 d6 but can you show me the precise line which cause black trouble?

-Looking around in this forum i had the impression that Cox was too critical against flohr's Bg4/c6 in the modern.Markovich in particular alalyzed a lot of lines not covered by Cox, so the variation is sound in your opinion?

-In general there is something else in Cox's book that has been refuted or greatly improved in this years?

I'm sorry i understand that i am asking old questions of no interest for most of the members but i am new here and i am trying to update my Alekhine theory.
Every suggestion is welcome!
Thank You!


Welcome.  It's not that the theory of Alekhine's is changing that rapidly, it's more that nobody really understands it in the first place.  My opinion is that Flohr's Variation is fully viable.  Flohr's plus either the Miles or the Kengis would make a nice repertoire.  I also opine that 6...Nc6 against the Four Pawns Attack is sound, something I wouldn't assert about the alternatives.  Finally there is the Dread Voronezh, which can be avoided by ...exd6 or taken on via Paddy's new method or more traditional attempts discussed at great length in other threads here.
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #24 - 02/12/10 at 13:51:03
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persiandrunkard wrote on 02/04/10 at 12:59:49:
Hi
I'd be interested in joining this alekhine workgroup
if somebody could give me directions
Thx


Sorry, I just noticed your post.  See my PM.
  
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Bresando
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #23 - 02/12/10 at 12:03:16
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Quote:
10.d6 Nc6? (Better is 10...Be6) 11.Nb5! Qh4+ 12.g3 Qxe4+ 13.Qe2 Qxh1 14.Bg5! +-

10...Nc6?! 11 Nb5 is certainly challenging but i have seen somewhere a continuation which looks decent for black. I'll try to find it but i fear that the explanation was in italian so i have to translate it.
However Cox suggestion after 10. d6 is Be6!? and my question is if white has found an improvement over Movsessian-Luther Istambul 2003 (draw).
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #22 - 02/12/10 at 11:21:03
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-In the 4PA i used to play the 5...dxe5 6...c5 line with e6
but i heard that a refutation has been discovered; i guess it involves the sharp 10 d6 but can you show me the precise line which cause black trouble?
10.d6 Nc6? (Better is 10...Be6) 11.Nb5! Qh4+ 12.g3 Qxe4+ 13.Qe2 Qxh1 14.Bg5! +-
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #21 - 02/12/10 at 10:09:39
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Hi everyone! Smiley
my Alekhine repertoire is entirely based on Cox book and i am trying to update it so i have some questions:

-In the 4PA i used to play the 5...dxe5 6...c5 line with e6
but i heard that a refutation has been discovered; i guess it involves the sharp 10 d6 but can you show me the precise line which cause black trouble?

-Looking around in this forum i had the impression that Cox was too critical against flohr's Bg4/c6 in the modern.Markovich in particular alalyzed a lot of lines not covered by Cox, so the variation is sound in your opinion?

-In general there is something else in Cox's book that has been refuted or greatly improved in this years?

I'm sorry i understand that i am asking old questions of no interest for most of the members but i am new here and i am trying to update my Alekhine theory.
Every suggestion is welcome!
Thank You!
  
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persiandrunkard
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #20 - 02/04/10 at 12:59:49
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Hi
I'd be interested in joining this alekhine workgroup
if somebody could give me directions
Thx
  
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Paddy
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #19 - 02/04/10 at 00:33:41
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Markovich wrote on 02/01/10 at 14:23:29:
Paddy wrote on 01/29/10 at 23:55:39:
Having now played some training games with 9...Bf5 10 Be2 e5!? and spent some time analysing it with the help of an engine, I can find no advantage for White after 11 dxe5 dxe5 12 Qxd8+ Rxd8 13 c5 Nc8, e.g. 14 Nf3 (I have also looked at 14 g4, 14 Bf3, 14 Nb5 and 14 Bg5)  14...Nc6 15 0-0 Nc8-e7 and Black seems to be in quite good shape, not only alive but with various counterplay ideas: ...e4; ...Nd4; ...Bd3.

If the above is correct, then this could constitute a significant strengthening of Black's resources against the Voronezh and White must look for improvements at move 10 or 11.


A. That's quite interesting.

B. Perhaps you'd be interested in joining the Alekhine Defense Working Group that some of us have started on Google Groups?  We haven't gotten very far, I must admit, but it has promise, and we could use another strong analyst.


I've now joined the group and uploaded my personal database of 100 games, mostly long play, for and against the Alekhine. I hope this will encourage others to contribute.

Attached is a training game to test 9...Bf5 19 Be2 e5 against the Voronezh, played tonight at 10 + 3 between myself as Black (FIDE 2133) and another club member (rated about 2200). Black's counterplay seemed sufficient and Black won after a blunder from White in a tricky position.
  
TomasvsPaddy.pgn ( 0 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #18 - 02/03/10 at 08:03:53
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Pier lala wrote on 02/02/10 at 20:50:40:
When Short started a Alekhine game in Corus, a reporter claimed: "The Alekhine defense is only played by people with a painfull childhood and by Short."

Now I understand why so less comes out of that group.
They hide with dreadfull tears.
Cry

Easy to criticize. Maybe you could try to do better. I think we are 9 in this group and most of us have also a job during the day and a family at home. We are no professionnals but my impression from the first steps is that the delivered work is far from bad, I'd even say it is good.
By the way, the Alekhine is not really a hot topic among the GM's and so the theory is not evolving that fast. Taking his time and going for the best we can find and maybe create is in such circumstances an adhoc approach.
  
Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #17 - 02/02/10 at 20:50:40
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When Short started a Alekhine game in Corus, a reporter claimed: "The Alekhine defense is only played by people with a painfull childhood and by Short."

Now I understand why so less comes out of that group.
They hide with dreadfull tears.
Cry
  
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Markovich
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #16 - 02/01/10 at 14:23:29
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Paddy wrote on 01/29/10 at 23:55:39:
Having now played some training games with 9...Bf5 10 Be2 e5!? and spent some time analysing it with the help of an engine, I can find no advantage for White after 11 dxe5 dxe5 12 Qxd8+ Rxd8 13 c5 Nc8, e.g. 14 Nf3 (I have also looked at 14 g4, 14 Bf3, 14 Nb5 and 14 Bg5)  14...Nc6 15 0-0 Nc8-e7 and Black seems to be in quite good shape, not only alive but with various counterplay ideas: ...e4; ...Nd4; ...Bd3.

If the above is correct, then this could constitute a significant strengthening of Black's resources against the Voronezh and White must look for improvements at move 10 or 11.


A. That's quite interesting.

B. Perhaps you'd be interested in joining the Alekhine Defense Working Group that some of us have started on Google Groups?  We haven't gotten very far, I must admit, but it has promise, and we could use another strong analyst.
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #15 - 01/29/10 at 23:55:39
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Paddy wrote on 01/26/10 at 11:41:55:
kylemeister wrote on 12/03/08 at 22:15:45:
TonyRo wrote on 12/03/08 at 20:23:27:


3. The Exchange - I've been under the impression that ...cd was bad on account of the Be3, Rc1, b3 plan, followed shortly by d5, so I've always played ...ed, but it's rather dry.




I suppose "bad" here means something like "giving White a greater chance for a slight advantage than the alternative."  That has sometimes been the reputation of 5...cd, even before the advent of the Voronezh (the Be3/Rc1/b3 thing), but isn't clear to me at any rate.  For instance, ECO, NCO and MCO don't give 5...ed as better.

One bit this brings to mind is Nakamura's seeming preference for 5...cd, with the tempo-sacrificing idea of 9...Bf5 10. Nf3 Bg4 in the Voronezh, trying to steer the game into an old familiar type of position.  


Forgive me if I've missed any further discussion of this 9...Bf5 idea here at the forum. I used to play the Alekhine over the board but gave it up some years ago because of the Voronezh, but my interest has revived this week following some blitz games at my club with a 2200 Alekhine specialist.

As far as I was aware, 9...Bf5 was supposed to be suspect if White played the most precise reply 10 Be2.

Then 10...d5 11 c5 Nc8 12 Bf3! sets Black problems.

Now 12...Be6 looks horrible, but if 12...e6 13 g4 Be4 14 Nxe4 dxe4 15 Bxe4 it seems Black has insufficient compensation for the pawn.

Or if 12...Nc6 13 Bxd5 (better than 13 g4? e5!) 13...e5 (13...Nb4 14 Bc4 Qa5 15 Qd2) 14 Bxc6 bxc6 15 Nge2 and again I think Black is struggling to prove sufficient compensation.

But the insertion of the moves 9...Bf5 10 Be2 might just make the ...e5 plan more playable, e.g. 10...e5!? 11 dxe5!? (might not be the best now) dxe5 12 Qxd8 Rxd8 13 c5 Nc8!?

OK, the structure is still somewhat favourable to White (queenside majority) but with so many pieces on the board this is not yet an endgame, and the different piece placements (compared to the 9...e5 line) i.e. the insertion of Be2 and Bf5, and the knight retreating to c8 rather than d7, might prove important.

Of course, even if this does improve Black's chances after 9...Bf5 10 Be2, we should not get too excited, since it is not clear that the tempo lost after 10 Nf3 Bg4 allows Black sufficient "old-style" counterplay, e.g.

Hou Yifan (2578) - Le Kieu Thien Kim (2291) [B04]
1st WMSG Rapid Pair KO Beijing CHN (2.2), 12.10.2008

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Nc3 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Rc1 0-0 9.b3 Bf5 10.Be2 d5 11.c5 Nc8 12.Nf3 Nc6 13.0-0 Bg4 14.b4 a6 15.Rb1 Bxf3 16.Bxf3 e6 17.a4 N8e7 18.b5 axb5 19.axb5 Na5 20.Be2 Nf5 21.Qd2 e5 22.Na4 exd4 23.Bg5 f6 24.Bf4 Nc4 25.Qb4 Ne5 26.Bxe5 fxe5 27.Nb6 Ra2 28.Bc4 dxc4 29.Qxc4+ Kh8 30.Qxa2 Qg5 31.Qd5 Nh4 32.Kh1 Qe7 33.Rbe1 Nf5 34.c6 bxc6 35.bxc6 Qc7 36.Nd7 Rd8 37.Qe6 Qc8 38.Rb1 Qc7 39.Rb7 Qa5 40.c7 Rg8 41.Qxg8+ 1-0

OK, only a rapid game, and with a big difference in ratings.

As I say, forgive me if this is old stuff here at the forum, but a quick search this morning didn't throw up any detailed discussion of this 9...Bf5 idea.


Having now played some training games with 9...Bf5 10 Be2 e5!? and spent some time analysing it with the help of an engine, I can find no advantage for White after 11 dxe5 dxe5 12 Qxd8+ Rxd8 13 c5 Nc8, e.g. 14 Nf3 (I have also looked at 14 g4, 14 Bf3, 14 Nb5 and 14 Bg5)  14...Nc6 15 0-0 Nc8-e7 and Black seems to be in quite good shape, not only alive but with various counterplay ideas: ...e4; ...Nd4; ...Bd3.

If the above is correct, then this could constitute a significant strengthening of Black's resources against the Voronezh and White must look for improvements at move 10 or 11.
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #14 - 01/27/10 at 13:55:25
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Keano wrote on 01/27/10 at 08:58:54:
Paddy - when I saw the Marin game with 9...Re8 I looked at it with curiosity thinking this could be a great TN but basically I agree with you, I really can´t see any long-term future for the move.

Ig - that plan with ...e6, ...Bd7-c6 has a certain logic to it, I will need to examine it more closely - I played Alekhines when I was younger and no real plans to go back to it but it would be handy to have it as a surprise weapon.


I know that this defense is used as a surprise weapon at high levels, but I think that Black is usually bluffing: he's not actually prepared to face the Four Pawns Attack, the Chase, or any of White's dangerous little ways of playing against this defense.  It may be a good assumption that a professional won't call that bluff, since it would require him booking up on a defense he's not likely to see very much.  But at the club or weekend Swiss level, I think Black will see his share of White's alternative ways of meeting Alekhine's and so he'll have to be prepared for them. 

And if Black must prepare, this ruins the Alekhine as a surprise weapon because there really is a large body of theory with which Black must be acquainted.  The whole thing about Alekhine's is that in most lines, White is not under much immediate pressure and so may select from a plethora of alternatives, with each of which Black must be familiar.

I've been preparing the Scheveningen Sicilian reached via 2...e6, and I've noticed that my Sicilian notes are much smaller than my Alekhine notes.  To me that says: play Alekhine's regularly and use the Sicilian as a surprise weapon.  Most Whites aren't accustomed to a Scheveningen reached other than via the Najdorf, so that idea has some heft to it.
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #13 - 01/27/10 at 13:02:05
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Keano

take a look at John Watson's analysis in one of the recent past montly updates
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #12 - 01/27/10 at 08:58:54
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Paddy - when I saw the Marin game with 9...Re8 I looked at it with curiosity thinking this could be a great TN but basically I agree with you, I really can´t see any long-term future for the move.

Ig - that plan with ...e6, ...Bd7-c6 has a certain logic to it, I will need to examine it more closely - I played Alekhines when I was younger and no real plans to go back to it but it would be handy to have it as a surprise weapon.
  
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Re: Building an Alekhine Repertoire....
Reply #11 - 01/26/10 at 18:15:35
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I must confess that one of the things I like in being a member of chesspublishing.com is to be able to see posts by members with their opinions on some lines (and which many times are more interesting than the "sentences" in repertoire books)

the last post by Paddy fits this category

by the way, some months ago I mentioned other alternatives (played by Chetverik) on move 9, i) e6 followed by Bd7 and Bc6 and ii) Nb6-d7-f6.

John Watson made some analysis on these games and apparently Black is not Ok. But ...
  
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